somehow this became an essay about mickey's awesome

[prof_pangaea]

so i have been watching new who with my roommate, starting from the beginning of s1, and not skipping the bad bits. i think everyone else i have hooked onto doctor who i've hooked through watching s3, since it was a very good starting place and didn't have huge amounts of facepalming and explaining to do, plus i love it (and i would skip tSC code until they were good and hooked. mwahahaha). except for my ex-guy, we watched old school videos from the library and then s1 when i got my hands on it. ah, olden days.

anyway, watching new who with someone who is also a fanboy type, but has no previous doctor who experience has been interesting. we have had many conversations.

here is a visual aid:


prof_: "Damn, Jackie, I LOVE YOU. Look at her! She is sitting with Ten, trying to help him, even though she sort of hates the Doctor. That's real compassion. People are always going on about Rose being compassionate but --"

Land: "Wait, when was Rose ever compassionate? Maybe in an episode I've never seen? I am seriously trying to think of anything she ever did that was compassionate. Like, what? I'm just going to leave Mickey while he maybe dies?"


i tried to think of something, because i have been defending series 1 rose for a couple years now and... i couldn't really come up with anything. okay, she talks to people like gwyneth and the blue girl from EotW, but that's not so much showing compassion as not being actively assholic. plus, with gwyneth, she really does talk down to her and treat her as naive and stupid, just because gwyneth is a product of her culture, which is in itself a rather naive and unintelligent kind of behaviour. rose is compassionate to the dalek in dalek, which i don't blame her for, since, you know, the doctor never told her "yes, my homeworld was destroyed by the daleks, who were, by the way, the most ruthless and evil species in the history of the universe and if you ever meet one you sould probably not hug it." but then at the end of the episode she stops the doctor from killing the dalek, and it seems to be more because the doctor is not acting the way she expects him to than because she really understands the dalek. then, in tEC she hears a child calling for its mother, and tries to find him, until she gets distracted by a barrage balloon and captain jack's arse, and the kid never comes back into her mind until the doctor mentions him.

meanwhile i can easily come up with loads of times that rose was selfish, immature or just plain horrible to the people who love her. erm. i remember watching s1 and being intrigued by this. especially because the doctor has his own troubling behaviour patterns -- taking rose to see the destruction of her planet on her first trip with him, so she can feel what he has felt, just a little. using emotional blackmail to keep rose with him after the events of AoL/WWIII. fathers day is just a clusterfuck of disfunction, with rose manipulating the doctor into doing something extremely dangerous, the doctor letting hiself be manipulated, the bit where he's going to leave her and she yells, "you'll be back, i know how sad you are!" the AMAZINGLY parallel scenes with pete and rose and then the doctor and rose (pete cups her cheek with his right hand, and then hugs her; the doctor cups her cheek with his right hand and does the same thing, just afterwards). this is when we figure out, okay, the doctor is rose's replacement father figure, he's older, he's strong, he'll always protect her and never leave her, that's what she wants; but when her real father shows up she'll drop him fast. and now doctor KNOWS this but he still goes along with it. anyway, there was interesting stuff going on that season, but it was only ever touched upon sporadically.

now i'm halfway through the second series and i forgot how much of it was so bad i had to repress it. i mean, i remember facepalming and cringing a lot, but god damn. watching RotC/AoS was especially painful as rose is at the peak of selfishness and immaturity, to the point of character bashing -- the scene where the doctor is telling her that if she ever trusted him, EVER, she needs to listen to him, and not go and try to find pete, while she pouts and keeps stealing glances over at the poster of him. ugh. i would be grossed out if they were writing a ten year old that way, let alone a twenty year old. also it is frustrating because david tennant has better chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show than billie piper. how about the scene where, right after the TARDIS *dies* (the thing rose knows is the most important to the doctor) rose wanders off to emo about her not!dad, and mickey stays with the doctor, and asks him about travelling between parallel worlds, and the doctor tells him about the time lords. actually, i think he says more to mickey about the time lords than he's ever said to rose. *facepalms* also there is the scene that i forgot about where everyone is breaking up into groups (rose with pete, because the doctor knows he can't stop her), the doctor with mrs. moore, mickey with jake, and the doctor calls out to him:

Doctor: "Mickey!"
Mickey: [turns around]
Doctor: "Good luck."
Mickey: "Yeah, you too. Rose, I'll see you later."
Rose: "Yeah, you better."


Doctor: "If we survive this, I'll meet you back at the TARDIS."


Mickey: "That's a promise."

this was SO GREAT for about two seconds, until mickey turns back and sees rose and the doctor smiling and hugging each other and, you know, giving each other the consideration they never seem to give him. and dammit, that's when he decides he's staying in the alt!verse. you can see it on his face. ;____;

anyway, i am remembering that i was quite glad when i heard billie piper was leaving at the end of the second series, because the producers had ruined rose and rose was ruining the doctor. when it was announced that she was coming back for s4 i was really glad, because i thought they could fix a lot of what they did to her character, and frankly, retcon her character in general, because watching those episodes again i keep wondering why the fuck anyone would really care about her, the way she was written. obviously that chance was squandered with journey's end.

anyway i have been thinking of this because of watching the series with noobs. having to explain, "no, really, it gets better! i swear!" makes me realise that if i hadn't been a doctor who fan before the new series began, i probably wouldn't be a fan now. or if i was, it would be because i had stopped watching during series two, caught an episode from series 3 or 4, and though, "oh, this looks a lot better now! awesome." and now fandom's not just made up of people who knew the old series, or people who watched rose and nine (or ten) and fell for the show; we've got that plus we've got people who came in with martha, and people who came in with donna, and we've got enough history for people to start saying, "yeah, i don't really like that character/season/episode" and have it not necessarily be a wank storm, just like nowadays people can say trial of a time lord was a bit shite and it doesn't mean they hate doctor who. or colin baker. or... mel. although they probably do hate mel (i can still love mel because i *haven't* seen trial of a time lord. ha!). and yeah, i'm afraid that, upon consideration, i just don't like rose. not the one we got on screen, anyway. here's to hoping she can be the next mel, though, given some years (and big finish getting many, many renewals of their license).

but it was all worth it because we got mickey. mickey, i love you. if you were mah boyfriend i would not leave you behind during an crazy apocalyptic earthquake/time storm. and if RTD wanted to make a character people could relate to, i'll take him -- a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself. also he's hot. i like that too.

also jackie. i wish i had a jackie.

Comments

[jigglykat.livejournal.com]

I wrote an entry about Rose before she reappeared in “Turn Left“, since a friend of mine challenged me to discuss her character for a meme.

I was incredibly disappointed to see that Rose’s character hadn’t grown as far as I had hoped by her proper appearance in “The Stolen Earth”/”Journey’s End”. I found her interesting enough to watch in “Turn Left” because it seemed like she had taken up the Doctor’s role in Pete’s World and had hoped that it’d trickle over into the last two episodes. And I had hoped that she’d choose to move on from the Doctor and stay in the AU, taking it up as her responsibility and be all ass-kicky at Torchwood. I’d definitely respect her as a character more.

BOY WAS I WRONG.

I haven’t properly ranted about Journey’s End and probably never will. And I won't clog your journal comments with my rant, because I think once I start, I won't be able to stop. I haven’t really seen it since it aired. I certainly was not happy the way it ended. And I felt so awful for Mickey. Was there even any interaction between Mickey and Rose at ALL, let alone a lack of goodbye (I can blame the ’no goodbye’ mostly because I think Rose figured she’d be staying with the Doctor - as did Mickey - so they’d see each other again)? Had their relationship become that strained? That dude deserved FAR better.

I still like Rose. I’ll still watch episodes from S1 and S2. But yeah. As far as wrapping up “her story” AGAIN, it was pretty awful. And even as someone who likes her, I hope HOPE that she'll never be brought up again. That chapter of the Doctor's life is over and he can have his closure and move on. I actually have a pretty good feeling this will be true, seeing as we have Moffat taking the wheel and a new Doctor next year.

I'm not current with the Torchwood rumor mill, but is Mickey going to show up? Because THAT would be awesome.

Also, I <3 Jackie. That's why I put her in my comic.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

"Was there even any interaction between Mickey and Rose at ALL?"

None, to the point that I was seriously wondering if we were meant to think they were angry and not speaking to each other. It was extremely weird.

"I'm not current with the Torchwood rumor mill, but is Mickey going to show up? Because THAT would be awesome."

Noel Clarke has since confirmed that he's not going to be in it. He seemed fairly set on not playing Mickey again, post-JE; from the interview I got the impression he came back because he wanted to give the character some closure/show he'd grown and changed for the better, then leave off with him for good.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

And I won't clog your journal comments with my rant, because I think once I start, I won't be able to stop.

dude, why do you think i make posts! I WANT CRAZY RANTS, DANG IT. or measured discussion. either way. anyway, sometime i will do the meta i have had simmering in my mind about JE, but i needed to get this out first, because it is uppermost at the moment, and also will provide brain background. mostly i think it will turn into a long essay about the treatment of queerness and sexuality in new who, because, other than ruining rose's character and fucking up donna, i think that is the worst legacy of that episode.

I can blame the ’no goodbye’ mostly because I think Rose figured she’d be staying with the Doctor - as did Mickey - so they’d see each other again

when mickey left the TARDIS the doctor looked confused and then mickey said something like, "don't have to be a genius to see how this will play out", and my impression was that he could see the doctor was going to leave nate and rose together in the alt!verse. which implies that even mickey can tell that the doctor is a fucked up dude with relationship issues, but rose can't. erm.

I still like Rose. I’ll still watch episodes from S1 and S2.

i want to like rose! when i was writing this i was coming up with all sorts of, "well, but if you look at it this way, it's really fucked up, but it's interesting..." but, yeah. actually watching the episodes makes it hard. especially s2. when mickey says he's going to stay in the alt!verse because his grandmother needs him, and rose says, "but what if *i* need you?" god damn. or the bit from the first screencap, where jackie has fallen asleep looking after the doctor, and rose stands in the doorway and says, "the proper doctor wouldn't have done this! he would save us." um... the proper doctor wouldn't have done what? sacrificed his life and risked an unstable and dangerous regeneration to save you? *facepalm city*

mickey isn't going to be in the next TW series. i am conflicted, because on the one hand, i would have had a reason to watch torchwood. on the other hand, i would have had a reason to watch torchwood. anyway, now i can believe that he is working at UNIT, sometimes with martha, and being generally awesome, so i am fine with that.

Also, I <3 Jackie.

notice how i snuck in sexy ten/jackie up there. OH YEAH.

That's why I put her in my comic.

...which i need to remember to actually read. *makes note*

[iko.livejournal.com]

"Turn Left" had me holding my breath because I was surprised how she's presented in that. She was close to my fanon!Rose! And all of that came crumbling down during the last two episodes so much that I was practically crying about it while I was watching it.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Blimey, this entry is reminding me how rusty I am on these topics. Time to do some binging before the con, I think!

(like I really need an excuse to re-watch DW...)

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

WE SHOULD ALSO WATCH DW TOGETHER AT THE CON. WITH THE HELP OF WHISKEY.

[iko.livejournal.com]

a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself

Your characterization of Mickey is nothing short of awesome. I think you summed up, in one sentence, what made me turn from not liking the character/feeling sorry for him to completely loving him and wanting more.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

yes, his first appearance, i was like, "okay, i definitely see why rose left earth to go with the doctor." in retrospect that is sort of bad writing, to only be able to make something seem appealing by making everything (or everyone) else around it seem like shite.

[kels.livejournal.com]

i was so happy when mickey decided to stay in our universe at the end of the 4th season. i'm holding out hope that he will appear in the season 5 specials, or at least on torchwood (and that they will not ruin his character). i would love to see more of him.

am i anomaly in that i was not a fan of doctor who before i started watching the new series (in fact i knew almost nothing about it), and have remained a fan throughout despite having seen all of season 2?

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

noel clarke said he's not going to be appearing on TW, and i doubt he'll be on DW any time in the near future (or.. ever). he's got a lot of other projects lined up, and good on him.

you're a more casual fan, though. you watch it and enjoy it, and that's it. you're not moved to write 5,000 word essays on how s2 proves doctor/rose or how s3 proves something or other about gallifreyan culture, or write fic where the doctor and mickey travel through space and time together. i also think that is how i got through s2, because back then i wasn't nearly as involved in fandom or invested in the show. i was like, "wow, this episode was pretty shite. i'll ignore all the bits that were crap, though, because i liked that one scene." also it was more like buffy for me, where i sort of... never liked buffy for the first four seasons, but i still really liked the show. then when s3 of dw started and i was like, "damn, martha is awesome!" i could see more what had missing.

Linked over here from Lizbee

[amaresu]

I've long thought that Rose was about as compassionate as Turlough. Which still gives her a one-up on C'rizz, but that's not hard. I think most of the Rose=compassionate statements seem to come from interviews and a few lines from the Doctor, not from anything Rose has actually done.

I also don't think that it's a bad thing that she's not that compassionate. I wish they'd played with her flaws more instead of pretending they weren't there. It would have been way more interesting and not as facepalmy.

I was so excited about Rose in Turn Left. The Rose shown in Turn Left was everything I'd always hoped Rose would be. She was in charge and solving problems and really being the Doctor. Something S1 Rose always seemed to have the potential to do. Then tSE/JE came about and my hopes were dashed. Maybe the Rose from Turn Left was actually from yet another universe? I read a fic along those lines and it was brilliant.

I thought the saddest thing about Mickey leaving the alt!verse was his statement about there being nothing for him there anymore. I got the impression that he and Jackie were really close, but that was about it. Poor guy.

Re: Linked over here from Lizbee

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

I also don't think that it's a bad thing that she's not that compassionate. I wish they'd played with her flaws more instead of pretending they weren't there. It would have been way more interesting and not as facepalmy.

yes, this. i loved the episodes that actually seemed to do this, like father's day. RTD said that rose' most amazing moments came when she transcended her selfishness, but... he always writes her not doing that. argh frustrating.

Something S1 Rose always seemed to have the potential to do.

it's part of my conception of the show that this is part of the doctor's function in the universe -- to awaken that potential in the people he meets. seeing that consistently not happen with one character while it happens with all the others is depressing.

I got the impression that he and Jackie were really close, but that was about it. Poor guy.

mah poor mickey noooooooo

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

I actually did start Who with New Who, before s3 had come out. I watched Girl in the Fireplace, in which the things I remember most distinctly was I liked Mickey quite a fair bit and Ten was fun, and then I went back and watched s1-2. And perhaps I have repressed some s2 Rose, but I do remember having a chore of a time getting through that series, but it didn't turn me off of continuing with the show. Anyway, besides that point, I agree with the stuff you said, basically.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

obviously there are people who came in during s1 or s2 and kept watching even through the episodes i think are terrible -- i mean, there are people for whom s2 is their very favourite series. i just meant that at the end of s2, the only people who were fans were either old school or people who, to some extent at least, quite liked the first two series of the show. obviously if they didn't that would just be... strange. now we've got people who have come in with s3 or s4, and aren't guaranteed to like the first two series at all. like people who came in with four and leela, they wouldn't necessarily be into three and jo.

[ionlylurkhere.livejournal.com]

This mostly has me thinking "sad, but true". Awesome meta.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

it's weird. i don't like not liking characters in this fandom. i'm fine with it everywhere else (don't really like buffy, don't really like kirk, etc), but in this fandom i want to like every companion, at least a bit. i do still like s1 rose -- she's selfish, but she's charming and funny. it's just that s2 makes rose and the doctor's relationship so fail... there is no reciprocity on the things either of them really truly wants, but neither of them are willing to let go or change, because they're afraid of losing what they have, even if it's not that great. which, again, would be an interesting story if anyone ever did something with it, but they don't. ;___;

[spacefall.livejournal.com]

IAWTC. I was actually quite glad when he ran off with his AU self's bereaved boyfriend. OK, no Mickey for a while, but at least he'd get some respect and a chance to use his abilities, as opposed to going to waste in the corner.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

i was like "nooooooooo you be taking my mickey!" but yes. i always prefer characters to go off and grow than stay and stagnate.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Ten/Mickey is the true love story.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

they have chemistry! i still can never get over the scene where mickey and rose are walking in opposite directions, and mickey calls out "it'll never be me, will it?" and the doctor DOESN'T go after him. the doctor always goes to the people in pain, the people who need help. that's who he is.

the nice thing about ten having all these gaps in his story for the specials is we can envision all sorts of adventures that the doctor and mickey might have had together, since obvs the doctor invites mickey to travel with him after they foil an alien invasion together by combining their leet skills. or after the doctor asks mickey to hack into torchwood so he can send them prank emails on their secure accounts.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

if RTD wanted to make a character people could relate to, i'll take him -- a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself.

WORD! Mickey is the kind of guy who would be the salt of the Earth in any other series, but in this one, he's the punching bag because he's not an adrenaline junkie.

Oh, wait, except that Nine grudgingly gave him props and let Mickey save face when Mickey asked him for help doing so. Whereas Ten, despite having needed Mickey's help and knowing that Mickey had saved the world several times, treats him as some sort of moderately annoying pet. Of Rose's.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

nine invited him along, happily. and ten lets mickey come along even though rose is very obviously against it because sarah jane wants him to. which is interesting. i also think that he might have let mickey come along to buy hiself time -- if rose has her real boyfriend on board (even if they've broken up, or aren't sure) then that's more time before he has to deal with the fact that rose wants the doctor to be her new boyfriend. argh that season is so fucked. he wants to romantically pair off mickey and rose because it's easier, but he still wants to be able to monopolise rose's attention and time whenever he feels like it.

[radiantbaby.livejournal.com]

I am so right there with you on this. I am watching new!Who with some friends of mine every week now and has been almost painful sitting through S1 and S2 again (the latter, especially). The more I watch those episodes, the more I hate most of them.

One thing that has happened though is, much like you, I have been becoming more and more in awe and respect of Mickey and Jackie. If they weren't around, I don't think I could deal with the episodes at all. They are positively awesomesauce with some more awesomesauce heaped on top.

This week is "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" thankfully, so we are almost into S3 (which I've been raving about to them). It can't get here quickly enough!

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

watching them by myself i can easily dismiss the parts that are bad or make no sense, but watching with others is facepalm city. THE WEREWOLF BECOMES SPACE JESUS?

They are positively awesomesauce with some more awesomesauce heaped on top.

they are the ones being given actual character development. i think that is why.

I want to have your fic babies.

[fourzoas.livejournal.com]

Thanks for writing the great meta. I, too, can't bear to watch most of S2 for most of the reasons you've outlined. I've had to watch RotC/AoS several times lately, and I just cringe at Rose, especially the beginning of RotC when, as you point out, Rose swans off while Mickey stays with the Doc to look after the TARDIS. When the Doctor says "This TARDIS is dead," I want to hug him.

fathers day is just a clusterfuck of disfunction, with rose manipulating the doctor into doing something extremely dangerous, the doctor letting hiself be manipulated, the bit where he's going to leave her and she yells, "you'll be back, i know how sad you are!" the AMAZINGLY parallel scenes with pete and rose and then the doctor and rose (pete cups her cheek with his right hand, and then hugs her; the doctor cups her cheek with his right hand and does the same thing, just afterwards).

"Father's Day" was the first newWho episode I saw and it hooked me onto the show because the relationship was so dysfunctional (don't know what that says about me) it intrigued me. As the show progressed, though, I got more and more annoyed with what looked like two characters regressing instead of anyone progressing--if that's what love does to you in RTD's world, I think I'll take a measure of hate.

Mickey's story breaks my heart (and really should have prepared me for what was going to happen to Martha) because he so clearly wants acceptance and validation, and he's denied it by this high-school-clique behavior the two of them exhibit. For a show that's likely to have a large contingent of fans who might have felt marginalized by society (which RTD seems to tweak in L&M), it was pretty risky to play up that dynamic for so long and so strongly.

OK...enough rambling. OK if I friend you?

Re: I want to have your fic babies.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

i love the bit where rose is like, "we can get help, right?" and he just looks at her and says, "where from?" it's so sad.

and then the part where he gives the TARDIS ten years of his life, to save her, and he's so happy to do it. i can't completely dislike an episode that has that in it.

OK...enough rambling. OK if I friend you?

every day is friending day here on the supercontinent of pangaea. i usually take countless rotational cycles to friend back because of being strange and liking to lurk forever, but feel free to friend and defriend at will!

[dancesontrains.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading this a lot. Somehow I managed to enjoy Series Two when it was first broadcast- the idea puzzles me now! I guess I managed to ignore the cliquishness of teh Ten & Rose?

And seconding the commenter above- do you mind if I friend you?

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

i enjoyed many parts of s2 when it was first broadcast -- there are still a lot of things i enjoy about various episodes. it's strange, it's like there are almost no episodes that don't neccessitate ignoring or handwaving at least one major inconsistency or bad characterisation or something (and usually more). i love the idea of the parallel earth breaking off from our own history when queen victoria became a werewolf, and i love the zeppelins and vague fascism (um, i don't love fascism. only stories about how fascism is bad). i love the TARDIS being thrown through a crack in time and ending up in a universe that kills it by being different, and how the time lords used to regulate those sorts of things, but now they're gone and there's no way to get back. and the underground revolution being led from a van, and finding out more about mickey, and killing the cybermen by letting them feel emotions again-- horrible but fascinating. it's just how the doctor treats mickey, and rose treats the doctor, and... agh. it's awful. but yeah, when you are able to handwave those things the story itself is interesting, and i think that's the case with a number of s2 episodes. i still don't understand the werewolf turning into space jesus, but hey, you can't have everything.

friend away, as long as you don't mind that i take many rotational cycles to process such things. :D

reply part one

[angelfireeast.livejournal.com]

First of all great post!

Yeah Jackie doesn't even like him and she doing all that to look after him. I'm trying to think of some Rose/compassionate scenes that aren't tained by something. I can't think of anything right now.

okay, she talks to people like gwyneth and the blue girl from EotW, but that's not so much showing compassion as not being actively assholic. plus, with gwyneth, she really does talk down to her and treat her as naive and stupid, just because gwyneth is a product of her culture, which is in itself a rather naive and unintelligent kind of behaviour...

...then, in tEC she hears a child calling for its mother, and tries to find him, until she gets distracted by a barrage balloon and captain jack's arse, and the kid never comes back into her mind until the doctor mentions him.

Gweneth is one scene that comes to mind but it's tainted by as you say her treatment of her, The way she talked down to her. As you pointed out for The Empty Child she cares about the kid till she meets Jack and then completely forgets about him. She has zero compassion for the lost alien child in Fear Her even after the Doctor tried to talk some into her. The only time I can see some untainted compassion is Love and Monsters towards Elton.

now i'm halfway through the second series and i forgot how much of it was so bad i had to repress it. i mean, i remember facepalming and cringing a lot, but god damn. watching RotC/AoS was especially painful as rose is at the peak of selfishness and immaturity, to the point of character bashing -- the scene where the doctor is telling her that if she ever trusted him, EVER, she needs to listen to him, and not go and try to find pete, while she pouts and keeps stealing glances over at the poster of him. ugh.

That episode shows her at one of her worst most selfish moments. I can't even stand to watch it anymore. She learned NOTHING from Father's Day. She saw in Father's Day what can and will happen when she doesn't listen to the Doctor about stuff like that. She caused millions of people to die in Father's Day with her selfishness before her Father changed fixed it. And she goes and does the same thing again in that episode even after the Doctor gave her his "if you ever trusted me" speech. She does the same thing again in series four only it's to get to the Doctor instead of Pete. Damn the universe it only matter what she wants. She is told all three times by the Doctor she can't because it's 'rip hole in time', 'it's bad' and 'risk destroying both universes if you travel back and forth'.

also it is frustrating because david tennant has better chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show than billie piper. how about the scene where, right after the TARDIS *dies* (the thing rose knows is the most important to the doctor) rose wanders off to emo about her not!dad, and mickey stays with the doctor, and asks him about travelling between parallel worlds, and the doctor tells him about the time lords. actually, i think he says more to mickey about the time lords than he's ever said to rose. *facepalms*

Good points. She puts the Doctor ahead of her family and boyfriend/best friend but he still comes second to herself. It's like Rose's reaction in Turn Left to the Doctor's death "I came so far." *rolleyes* I love that Mickey takes the time to ask the Doctor and the TARDIS. It just shows what great guy he is. At that point in the episode he could have been off being emo about the woman who raised him being alive instead he was with the Doctor taking the time.

this was SO GREAT for about two seconds, until mickey turns back and sees rose and the doctor smiling and hugging each other and, you know, giving each other the consideration they never seem to give him. and dammit, that's when he decides he's staying in the alt!verse. you can see it on his face.

It was so good for those two seconds. I'm so glad Mickey walked away of his own free will because it was what was good for him. Martha ended up doing the same thing too.

reply part two

[angelfireeast.livejournal.com]

anyway, i am remembering that i was quite glad when i heard billie piper was leaving at the end of the second series, because the producers had ruined rose and rose was ruining the doctor. when it was announced that she was coming back for s4 i was really glad, because i thought they could fix a lot of what they did to her character, and frankly, retcon her character in general, because watching those episodes again i keep wondering why the fuck anyone would really care about her, the way she was written. obviously that chance was squandered with journey's end.

I could go on and on about how Rose ruined the Doctor, how she ruined him two series after she left. How it seemed no companion could have a Rose free time... but this would become a very long post indeed. I had many fears and worries about Rose returning in series four but I had also some hope that when she came back she would be a amazing character. That she would have grown up and matured and stopped being so selfish. That she would have had "that fantastic life" the Doctor wanted her to have. Silly me for hoping for something better because what we got was something worse. They took the worse parts of her character - her selfish, immaturely and obsessiveness with the Doctor and intensified it.

anyway i have been thinking of this because of watching the series with noobs. having to explain, "no, really, it gets better! i swear!" makes me realise that if i hadn't been a doctor who fan before the new series began, i probably wouldn't be a fan now. or if i was, it would be because i had stopped watching during series two, caught an episode from series 3 or 4, and though, "oh, this looks a lot better now! awesome." and now fandom's not just made up of people who knew the old series, or people who watched rose and nine (or ten) and fell for the show; we've got that plus we've got people who came in with martha, and people who came in with donna, and we've got enough history for people to start saying, "yeah, i don't really like that character/season/episode" and have it not necessarily be a wank storm, just like nowadays people can say trial of a time lord was a bit shite and it doesn't mean they hate doctor who. or colin baker. or... mel. although they probably do hate mel (i can still love mel because i *haven't* seen trial of a time lord. ha!). and yeah, i'm afraid that, upon consideration, i just don't like rose. not the one we got on screen, anyway. here's to hoping she can be the next mel, though, given some years (and big finish getting many, many renewals of their license).

*raises hand* I joined the shown when Martha did. I need to go read Wicapia about Mel.

but it was all worth it because we got mickey. mickey, i love you. if you were mah boyfriend i would not leave you behind during an crazy apocalyptic earthquake/time storm. and if RTD wanted to make a character people could relate to, i'll take him -- a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself. also he's hot. i like that too.

also jackie. i wish i had a jackie.

I love Mickey! He started off as this coward zineophile(sp) in the first episode but grows into this amazing character who is really underrated. i love his return in series four. He was only shown to be better with his return. He really is someone people could relate to (like Martha and Donna).

I agree he's hot! I'm a Noel Clark fan since before his days on Doctor Who.

Also Jackie rocks. No one really giver her enough credit either. it's a shame, so many people force on Rose (one of the worse characters in new who verse) and over look two brilliant side characters who where around the same time.

Re: reply part two

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

I could go on and on about how Rose ruined the Doctor, how she ruined him two series after she left.

i can only agree with that on a meta level, i.e. the way rose was written did not reflect well on the doctor. within the show, however, well. i just can't get behind blaming the GIRL (deliberate usage of "girl" as opposed to "woman") in a situation in which all the power was held by THE MAN and he created the circumstances and in fact encouraged her weird behaviour.

also, i'm not trying to say rose has zero compassion, because obviously she does have compassion. just that compassion is really not her strongest point, as a character. being charming, funny, brave, sure.

[malicehaughton.livejournal.com]

And a big, resounding YES! to all this. Especially on how awful season 2 Rose was, and that she got even worse during the S4 season finale.

I always liked Jackie and Mickey. I liked them two even better than Rose during second season. Jackie was my favourite character season 2.

Most people's problem with these two (well, if they're mainly Rose fans I think) is that one's just the mum and the others the ex. Who wants to know anything about the ex, and who cares about the mum, right? Well, apparently even ROSE doesn't care. Which is cruel of her.

Rose didn't grow at all the second season. I saw her actually regress. She went from a person who at least cared a bit about other people, to someone who thought "Myeh, stuff it, travelling around the universe in a time machine makes me the best! I don't need to care about anyone anymore!" She spent the entire second season having ridiculous amounts of fun at other people's expense. The only time she got upset was when the Doctor didn't go immediately for her.

And who can ever forget Doomsday, in which Rose was crying her little heart out about the Doctor not coming back for her. He plainly stated that he wouldn't knock down the walls of the dimensions to get to her, because it was too dangerous for both the universes. She said "So?" and then went about building herself a cannon that did just what the Doctor practically said not to do.

She regressed even further by the end of S4. In which she didn't give a crap about anything but getting to the Doctor, and the TARDIS. Bye-bye season 1 Rose who said that the Doctor shows people a better way of life, and that the time-travel itself doesn't matter. Hello Rose who blatantly refuses any other life BUT that on the TARDIS, regardless of the risk to the rest of life as a whole.

She didn't love the Doctor, she loved the life he leads. The Doctor at least moved on from Rose, though he did miss her a tonne. Rose disappears and he even starts telling people about Gallifrey and his life beforehand. He never said anything other than his planet was destroyed to Rose. He was too dependent on her. Losing her helped him move on with his life.

I just had Jackie giving Rose the biggest slapping of her life for her bahaviour towards Handy. Good thing Rose already has her own flat in my alt!verse, or Jackie would disown her.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

She said "So?" and then went about building herself a cannon that did just what the Doctor practically said not to do.

i just can't believe RTD really wants us to believe that that's what rose did, even though his writing implies it, because it's so... insane. this is why fanon is important, because we can make these things make sense without character bashing.

[shobogan.livejournal.com]

This makes me so sad, because Nine's season was the first Who I ever watched and I loved Rose, but it's also so true.

In her first season? I thought those negative traits would be dealt with, eventually, not just brushed aside and ignored. I thought her epiphany in the finale would lead her to realise that she didn't need the Doctor to do wonderful things.

I really liked her scene with Gwyneth, actually, especially since Gwyneth called her out on it - Rose wasn't trying to be dismissive or condescending, she was trying to help, but she was, and she felt guilty about it when she realised.

She was far from perfect, but she always tried - and in season two it was like she stopped, and then regressed, and made the Doctor her world, and I like to blame it on Nine dying because otherwise I will pull my hair out.

I always thought that was what drew the Doctor to her so much - her potential. I like to think she realised it in the alt!verse, and was very much exaggerating her emotions in JE, rather like Sarah clearly did in SR. Torchwood wouldn't make those canons just to appease a lovesick agent; they were just a bonus. She was trying to save the world AND see the Doctor - and when she did see him again she was overwhelmed.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it. :| (I also have fanon for how different she seems in Turn Left, the coldness between her and Mickey, and how exactly she managed to move on and then moved back, which are all tied together. Not that I've given this entirely too much thought, or anything.)

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

I figure it's obvious getting to see the Doctor was a perk of being one of the few agents sent by canon to find the only guy who could help them now that the universes were being assaulted, 'cause they knew him from before and could appeal for his help, and that breaking down walls was just a temporary price they'd have to pay. Of course, being Rose, the perk took over for her on the personal level, but I don't think the attempts to find him were nothing more than trying to get back to that guy she had a crush on.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I need to upload a Mickey icon - I'm sure I've got one around here somewhere.

Mickey and Jackie are the only reason I can bear to watch anything from Season 2. And god, you are SO right about David having hardly any chemistry with Billie compared to everyone else. He has more chemistry with Camille than he does Billie. (I love the bit where Jackie kisses Ten in AoG and he's flapping his arms about, because I secretly believe that what he really wants to do is wrap his arms around her and snog her back, and then drag her into the bedroom. Ahem.)

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

And god, you are SO right about David having hardly any chemistry with Billie compared to everyone else.

i find it strange because they are such good friends in real life. maybe that's why, though -- the show was trying to force their natural chemistry into something different, so it ended up feeling not quite right. hmmm.

[stardust9121.livejournal.com]

Mickey! One of the only characters in S2 to have, you know, actual character growth.

I adored Rose in S1, I really did. She was flawed, but in a believable and still sympathetic way, and over the course of that season did actually have a solid character arc, cumulating with the finale. And then...she regressed. To the emotional age of, like, twelve. I couldn't stand her in S2, and I found the Ten/Rose dynamic to be really smug and obnoxious, especially compared to the fascinating relationship between Nine and Rose. Tooth and Claw is to me the ultimate representation of that obnoxiousness, but at the end of the episode it seemed like Rose and the Doctor were at least going to get called out on it. And then...not so much. They came close, especially through Mickey and Sarah Jane, but in the end completely got away with it as if it were a positive character trait. This is maybe why it took me an entire season to get over Nine and used to Ten.

On the other hand, while my feelings toward Mickey and Jackie were pretty meh during S1, suddenly in S2 I loved them. And continue to love them now. Doctor Who, as a show, likes to go on and on about the awesomeness of ordinary people...and yet holds up Rose as the shining example of this philosophy while allowing Mickey and Jackie, way more deserving of it, to be ignored if not openly mocked?

My first thought, when I heard David Tennant was going to be leaving, was, "Holy crap. This regeneration really isAll About Rose." Which almost, in a way, makes it work - their odd story has been wrapped up as Ten's own story has, and though I've now come to love Ten as well (especially with Donna), we'll be able to move on with a fresh start soon.

I will say, though I never really bought into the Ten/Rose, the show almost changed my mind for one split second - and that was just after he got shot by the Dalek. Suddenly, if only for those last few minutes, I saw it. And then we got JE and I was right back to, "No. Ewewewew stop, no." And we get all these lines from the Doctor telling Rose how she made him better, and no, she really didn't. Not this Doctor, anyway, and so much of JE just drive that home. Martha did, and Donna did, but Rose and the Doctor's positive influence on each other kinda came to a stop when he died saving her and then came back with a self that revolved around her.

Mind if I friend you? :)

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

This is maybe why it took me an entire season to get over Nine and used to Ten.

the friend i am doing my re-watch with is having the same exact issue.

I will say, though I never really bought into the Ten/Rose, the show almost changed my mind for one split second - and that was just after he got shot by the Dalek. Suddenly, if only for those last few minutes, I saw it.

i will say that i could definitely buy ten/rose at various times -- but not the kind of ten/rose that most of fandom seems to produce. they love each other, but they want different things, as is made obvious many times, so the ten/rose i can see is fairly sad.

but Rose and the Doctor's positive influence on each other kinda came to a stop when he died saving her and then came back with a self that revolved around her.

as in all situations involving a nineteen year old girl and a thousand year old alien, i blame the guy who has the age and experience to know better.

[supasass.livejournal.com]

This is a most excellent meta post. I started watching Doctor Who because of Ecclestone, and loved his ways, and also borne the love-hate relationship I have with Rose. I loved that she had flaws and that they were sort of explored in Father's Day. I saw her rant in POTW as her unquenchable need to do something, that she was really trying so I did like her a lot. And then season 2 came along and I didn't really watch it. I thought I was being a casual watcher until I realised so many of the episodes made me cringe like I was in a gurning competition. And then season 3 came along and blew me out of the water.

And so, looking back, from the first episode - the last lines and its something like.

Rose: (kisses Mickey goodbye) Thanks.
Mickey: For what?
Rose: Exactly. (runs off to the Doctor)

It just seems so unbelievably cruel, like Lance attacking Donna's being cruel. And then, on rewatching, Mickey is a wonderful, lovely person, which makes Rose the coldest person ever. Though she was also very good in TEoTW and getting her footing as a companion. It's probs my favourite Doctor/Rose story. She had so much humour and ambition to give and ended up a selfish, emo-lovesick child who was completely ruined in TSE/JE. It makes me feel pity for her, and now I want to read good Rose fanfiction where she does start to move on and have that progress I always assumed everyone gained, eventually. Because then I love her. *sighs* There's so much more to say, but so many people have also written such brilliant comments and I need to start writing my own meta about RTD's arc from someone when the joy of Who is something that's come to them from 2005 (when I was 16/17). I'm also going to add, if that's alright. Thanks.

[prof-pangaea.livejournal.com]

and loved his ways,

awwwwe.

She had so much humour and ambition to give and ended up a selfish, emo-lovesick child who was completely ruined in TSE/JE. It makes me feel pity for her, and now I want to read good Rose fanfiction where she does start to move on and have that progress I always assumed everyone gained, eventually.

tSE/JE is just inexplicable to me. why would RTD write her like that? what about all the kids watching, the little girls, who started off with rose when they were eight or nine years old? referecing thoughts i have had elsewhere, i think he wrote a lot of that stuff in tSE/JE to wind up shippers/romantics -- the hilarious running toward each other forever scene and then getting shot by a dalek, then giving the not!doctor and rose a "happy ending" that is so artificial even the characters themselves seem weirded out by it. but how is that fair to rose's actual fans, those kids? jesus.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

but it was all worth it because we got mickey.

This is the best and truest summary of S1-2 ever.

i can still love mel because i *haven't* seen trial of a time lord. ha!

Oh, Mel's not bad in Trial, she's lovely! Well—actually, make that lovely in Vervoids and awful in Ultimate Foe, but I still thought she was better there than in Delta. Besides, giant genital-faced plants.