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prof_pangaeaso i have been watching new who with my roommate, starting from the beginning of s1, and not skipping the bad bits. i think everyone else i have hooked onto doctor who i've hooked through watching s3, since it was a very good starting place and didn't have huge amounts of facepalming and explaining to do, plus i love it (and i would skip tSC code until they were good and hooked. mwahahaha). except for my ex-guy, we watched old school videos from the library and then s1 when i got my hands on it. ah, olden days.
anyway, watching new who with someone who is also a fanboy type, but has no previous doctor who experience has been interesting. we have had many conversations.
here is a visual aid:
prof_: "Damn, Jackie, I LOVE YOU. Look at her! She is sitting with Ten, trying to help him, even though she sort of hates the Doctor. That's real compassion. People are always going on about Rose being compassionate but --"
Land: "Wait, when was Rose ever compassionate? Maybe in an episode I've never seen? I am seriously trying to think of anything she ever did that was compassionate. Like, what? I'm just going to leave Mickey while he maybe dies?"
i tried to think of something, because i have been defending series 1 rose for a couple years now and... i couldn't really come up with anything. okay, she talks to people like gwyneth and the blue girl from EotW, but that's not so much showing compassion as not being actively assholic. plus, with gwyneth, she really does talk down to her and treat her as naive and stupid, just because gwyneth is a product of her culture, which is in itself a rather naive and unintelligent kind of behaviour. rose is compassionate to the dalek in dalek, which i don't blame her for, since, you know, the doctor never told her "yes, my homeworld was destroyed by the daleks, who were, by the way, the most ruthless and evil species in the history of the universe and if you ever meet one you sould probably not hug it." but then at the end of the episode she stops the doctor from killing the dalek, and it seems to be more because the doctor is not acting the way she expects him to than because she really understands the dalek. then, in tEC she hears a child calling for its mother, and tries to find him, until she gets distracted by a barrage balloon and captain jack's arse, and the kid never comes back into her mind until the doctor mentions him.
meanwhile i can easily come up with loads of times that rose was selfish, immature or just plain horrible to the people who love her. erm. i remember watching s1 and being intrigued by this. especially because the doctor has his own troubling behaviour patterns -- taking rose to see the destruction of her planet on her first trip with him, so she can feel what he has felt, just a little. using emotional blackmail to keep rose with him after the events of AoL/WWIII. fathers day is just a clusterfuck of disfunction, with rose manipulating the doctor into doing something extremely dangerous, the doctor letting hiself be manipulated, the bit where he's going to leave her and she yells, "you'll be back, i know how sad you are!" the AMAZINGLY parallel scenes with pete and rose and then the doctor and rose (pete cups her cheek with his right hand, and then hugs her; the doctor cups her cheek with his right hand and does the same thing, just afterwards). this is when we figure out, okay, the doctor is rose's replacement father figure, he's older, he's strong, he'll always protect her and never leave her, that's what she wants; but when her real father shows up she'll drop him fast. and now doctor KNOWS this but he still goes along with it. anyway, there was interesting stuff going on that season, but it was only ever touched upon sporadically.
now i'm halfway through the second series and i forgot how much of it was so bad i had to repress it. i mean, i remember facepalming and cringing a lot, but god damn. watching RotC/AoS was especially painful as rose is at the peak of selfishness and immaturity, to the point of character bashing -- the scene where the doctor is telling her that if she ever trusted him, EVER, she needs to listen to him, and not go and try to find pete, while she pouts and keeps stealing glances over at the poster of him. ugh. i would be grossed out if they were writing a ten year old that way, let alone a twenty year old. also it is frustrating because david tennant has better chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show than billie piper. how about the scene where, right after the TARDIS *dies* (the thing rose knows is the most important to the doctor) rose wanders off to emo about her not!dad, and mickey stays with the doctor, and asks him about travelling between parallel worlds, and the doctor tells him about the time lords. actually, i think he says more to mickey about the time lords than he's ever said to rose. *facepalms* also there is the scene that i forgot about where everyone is breaking up into groups (rose with pete, because the doctor knows he can't stop her), the doctor with mrs. moore, mickey with jake, and the doctor calls out to him:
Doctor: "Mickey!"
Mickey: [turns around]
Doctor: "Good luck."
Mickey: "Yeah, you too. Rose, I'll see you later."
Rose: "Yeah, you better."
Doctor: "If we survive this, I'll meet you back at the TARDIS."
Mickey: "That's a promise."
this was SO GREAT for about two seconds, until mickey turns back and sees rose and the doctor smiling and hugging each other and, you know, giving each other the consideration they never seem to give him. and dammit, that's when he decides he's staying in the alt!verse. you can see it on his face. ;____;
anyway, i am remembering that i was quite glad when i heard billie piper was leaving at the end of the second series, because the producers had ruined rose and rose was ruining the doctor. when it was announced that she was coming back for s4 i was really glad, because i thought they could fix a lot of what they did to her character, and frankly, retcon her character in general, because watching those episodes again i keep wondering why the fuck anyone would really care about her, the way she was written. obviously that chance was squandered with journey's end.
anyway i have been thinking of this because of watching the series with noobs. having to explain, "no, really, it gets better! i swear!" makes me realise that if i hadn't been a doctor who fan before the new series began, i probably wouldn't be a fan now. or if i was, it would be because i had stopped watching during series two, caught an episode from series 3 or 4, and though, "oh, this looks a lot better now! awesome." and now fandom's not just made up of people who knew the old series, or people who watched rose and nine (or ten) and fell for the show; we've got that plus we've got people who came in with martha, and people who came in with donna, and we've got enough history for people to start saying, "yeah, i don't really like that character/season/episode" and have it not necessarily be a wank storm, just like nowadays people can say trial of a time lord was a bit shite and it doesn't mean they hate doctor who. or colin baker. or... mel. although they probably do hate mel (i can still love mel because i *haven't* seen trial of a time lord. ha!). and yeah, i'm afraid that, upon consideration, i just don't like rose. not the one we got on screen, anyway. here's to hoping she can be the next mel, though, given some years (and big finish getting many, many renewals of their license).
but it was all worth it because we got mickey. mickey, i love you. if you were mah boyfriend i would not leave you behind during an crazy apocalyptic earthquake/time storm. and if RTD wanted to make a character people could relate to, i'll take him -- a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself. also he's hot. i like that too.
also jackie. i wish i had a jackie.
anyway, watching new who with someone who is also a fanboy type, but has no previous doctor who experience has been interesting. we have had many conversations.
here is a visual aid:
prof_: "Damn, Jackie, I LOVE YOU. Look at her! She is sitting with Ten, trying to help him, even though she sort of hates the Doctor. That's real compassion. People are always going on about Rose being compassionate but --"
Land: "Wait, when was Rose ever compassionate? Maybe in an episode I've never seen? I am seriously trying to think of anything she ever did that was compassionate. Like, what? I'm just going to leave Mickey while he maybe dies?"
i tried to think of something, because i have been defending series 1 rose for a couple years now and... i couldn't really come up with anything. okay, she talks to people like gwyneth and the blue girl from EotW, but that's not so much showing compassion as not being actively assholic. plus, with gwyneth, she really does talk down to her and treat her as naive and stupid, just because gwyneth is a product of her culture, which is in itself a rather naive and unintelligent kind of behaviour. rose is compassionate to the dalek in dalek, which i don't blame her for, since, you know, the doctor never told her "yes, my homeworld was destroyed by the daleks, who were, by the way, the most ruthless and evil species in the history of the universe and if you ever meet one you sould probably not hug it." but then at the end of the episode she stops the doctor from killing the dalek, and it seems to be more because the doctor is not acting the way she expects him to than because she really understands the dalek. then, in tEC she hears a child calling for its mother, and tries to find him, until she gets distracted by a barrage balloon and captain jack's arse, and the kid never comes back into her mind until the doctor mentions him.
meanwhile i can easily come up with loads of times that rose was selfish, immature or just plain horrible to the people who love her. erm. i remember watching s1 and being intrigued by this. especially because the doctor has his own troubling behaviour patterns -- taking rose to see the destruction of her planet on her first trip with him, so she can feel what he has felt, just a little. using emotional blackmail to keep rose with him after the events of AoL/WWIII. fathers day is just a clusterfuck of disfunction, with rose manipulating the doctor into doing something extremely dangerous, the doctor letting hiself be manipulated, the bit where he's going to leave her and she yells, "you'll be back, i know how sad you are!" the AMAZINGLY parallel scenes with pete and rose and then the doctor and rose (pete cups her cheek with his right hand, and then hugs her; the doctor cups her cheek with his right hand and does the same thing, just afterwards). this is when we figure out, okay, the doctor is rose's replacement father figure, he's older, he's strong, he'll always protect her and never leave her, that's what she wants; but when her real father shows up she'll drop him fast. and now doctor KNOWS this but he still goes along with it. anyway, there was interesting stuff going on that season, but it was only ever touched upon sporadically.
now i'm halfway through the second series and i forgot how much of it was so bad i had to repress it. i mean, i remember facepalming and cringing a lot, but god damn. watching RotC/AoS was especially painful as rose is at the peak of selfishness and immaturity, to the point of character bashing -- the scene where the doctor is telling her that if she ever trusted him, EVER, she needs to listen to him, and not go and try to find pete, while she pouts and keeps stealing glances over at the poster of him. ugh. i would be grossed out if they were writing a ten year old that way, let alone a twenty year old. also it is frustrating because david tennant has better chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show than billie piper. how about the scene where, right after the TARDIS *dies* (the thing rose knows is the most important to the doctor) rose wanders off to emo about her not!dad, and mickey stays with the doctor, and asks him about travelling between parallel worlds, and the doctor tells him about the time lords. actually, i think he says more to mickey about the time lords than he's ever said to rose. *facepalms* also there is the scene that i forgot about where everyone is breaking up into groups (rose with pete, because the doctor knows he can't stop her), the doctor with mrs. moore, mickey with jake, and the doctor calls out to him:
Doctor: "Mickey!"
Mickey: [turns around]
Doctor: "Good luck."
Mickey: "Yeah, you too. Rose, I'll see you later."
Rose: "Yeah, you better."
Doctor: "If we survive this, I'll meet you back at the TARDIS."
Mickey: "That's a promise."
this was SO GREAT for about two seconds, until mickey turns back and sees rose and the doctor smiling and hugging each other and, you know, giving each other the consideration they never seem to give him. and dammit, that's when he decides he's staying in the alt!verse. you can see it on his face. ;____;
anyway, i am remembering that i was quite glad when i heard billie piper was leaving at the end of the second series, because the producers had ruined rose and rose was ruining the doctor. when it was announced that she was coming back for s4 i was really glad, because i thought they could fix a lot of what they did to her character, and frankly, retcon her character in general, because watching those episodes again i keep wondering why the fuck anyone would really care about her, the way she was written. obviously that chance was squandered with journey's end.
anyway i have been thinking of this because of watching the series with noobs. having to explain, "no, really, it gets better! i swear!" makes me realise that if i hadn't been a doctor who fan before the new series began, i probably wouldn't be a fan now. or if i was, it would be because i had stopped watching during series two, caught an episode from series 3 or 4, and though, "oh, this looks a lot better now! awesome." and now fandom's not just made up of people who knew the old series, or people who watched rose and nine (or ten) and fell for the show; we've got that plus we've got people who came in with martha, and people who came in with donna, and we've got enough history for people to start saying, "yeah, i don't really like that character/season/episode" and have it not necessarily be a wank storm, just like nowadays people can say trial of a time lord was a bit shite and it doesn't mean they hate doctor who. or colin baker. or... mel. although they probably do hate mel (i can still love mel because i *haven't* seen trial of a time lord. ha!). and yeah, i'm afraid that, upon consideration, i just don't like rose. not the one we got on screen, anyway. here's to hoping she can be the next mel, though, given some years (and big finish getting many, many renewals of their license).
but it was all worth it because we got mickey. mickey, i love you. if you were mah boyfriend i would not leave you behind during an crazy apocalyptic earthquake/time storm. and if RTD wanted to make a character people could relate to, i'll take him -- a good, decent guy, kind of goofy, tries to do the right thing, in love with someone who doesn't love him back, but strong enough to face up to that in the end, starts off watching the game on telly and goes on to save the world with the skills he taught himself. also he's hot. i like that too.
also jackie. i wish i had a jackie.
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no subject
Date: 2008-11-16 03:19 am (UTC)dude, why do you think i make posts! I WANT CRAZY RANTS, DANG IT. or measured discussion. either way. anyway, sometime i will do the meta i have had simmering in my mind about JE, but i needed to get this out first, because it is uppermost at the moment, and also will provide brain background. mostly i think it will turn into a long essay about the treatment of queerness and sexuality in new who, because, other than ruining rose's character and fucking up donna, i think that is the worst legacy of that episode.
I can blame the ’no goodbye’ mostly because I think Rose figured she’d be staying with the Doctor - as did Mickey - so they’d see each other again
when mickey left the TARDIS the doctor looked confused and then mickey said something like, "don't have to be a genius to see how this will play out", and my impression was that he could see the doctor was going to leave nate and rose together in the alt!verse. which implies that even mickey can tell that the doctor is a fucked up dude with relationship issues, but rose can't. erm.
I still like Rose. I’ll still watch episodes from S1 and S2.
i want to like rose! when i was writing this i was coming up with all sorts of, "well, but if you look at it this way, it's really fucked up, but it's interesting..." but, yeah. actually watching the episodes makes it hard. especially s2. when mickey says he's going to stay in the alt!verse because his grandmother needs him, and rose says, "but what if *i* need you?" god damn. or the bit from the first screencap, where jackie has fallen asleep looking after the doctor, and rose stands in the doorway and says, "the proper doctor wouldn't have done this! he would save us." um... the proper doctor wouldn't have done what? sacrificed his life and risked an unstable and dangerous regeneration to save you? *facepalm city*
mickey isn't going to be in the next TW series. i am conflicted, because on the one hand, i would have had a reason to watch torchwood. on the other hand, i would have had a reason to watch torchwood. anyway, now i can believe that he is working at UNIT, sometimes with martha, and being generally awesome, so i am fine with that.
Also, I <3 Jackie.
notice how i snuck in sexy ten/jackie up there. OH YEAH.
That's why I put her in my comic.
...which i need to remember to actually read. *makes note*
no subject
Date: 2008-11-16 03:50 am (UTC)Oh god, I don't even know where to BEGIN with Donna. I barely get angry at this show, but I was FURIOUS about that.
when mickey says he's going to stay in the alt!verse because his grandmother needs him, and rose says, "but what if *i* need you?" god damn.
YES. I can't stand when Rose treats Mickey like that! Or how in "School Reunion" when Mickey was like 'CAN I COME' and you see Rose in the foreground mouthing 'NO' to the Doctor. I also quite enjoy that while "School Reunion" ends with Rose being quite pissed off at Mickey, "Girl in the Fireplace" starts up with them being BFF again.
anyway, now i can believe that he is working at UNIT, sometimes with martha, and being generally awesome, so i am fine with that.
I can jump on this boat, too. Or Mickey has become a rogue alien hunter/defender of the Earth. He rides around in a black leather jacket and on a Harley, saving the day then moving onto the next town.
I know Freema is going to be on Law & Order: London, but is she also a 100% confirmation of not being on Torchwood either? I remember there being a bit of wank about her choosing L&O over TW.
notice how i snuck in sexy ten/jackie up there. OH YEAH.
I DID. Well done.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-16 12:39 pm (UTC)I have *NEVER* understood how Rose went from specifically asking Mickey to join Team TARDIS to behaving like toddler faced with brussels sprouts when he does.
s she also a 100% confirmation of not being on Torchwood either?
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't 100% official confirmation, but it isn't looking likely. On the other hand, that story about disgruntled writers literally throwing scripts in shredders can only have been written by someone utterly clueless about show business.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-16 06:28 pm (UTC)in first series, she still wants mickey to be her boyfriend. in the second series rose wants the doctor to be her boyfriend. he is perfect now -- still the older man who will protect her and take care of her, but young looking enough to also be her one true love. everything she's wanted in a man. i mean, she still drops him as soon as pete shows up, but i do think that's it. she's never really broken up with mickey, so having him around means she'll have to deal with their relationship one way or another.
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Date: 2008-11-16 07:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-16 07:56 pm (UTC)